The Beginner’s Blueprint to Buying $0 Down Real Estate w/ “Creative Finance”

Mindy:
Welcome to the BiggerPockets Bunny Podcast Bonus Edition where we interview Pace Morby and talk about all things creative finance. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me as always is my hoppy co-host, Scott Trench.

Scott:
Thanks, Mindy. Great to be here with my million hair co-host, Mindy Jensen.

Mindy:
Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you are starting.

Scott:
That’s right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big-time investments in assets like real estate, start your own business or learn about the intricacies of creative finance and finding seller bunnies will help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way as you can launch yourself towards your dreams.

Mindy:
Scott, I am excited to talk to Pace Morby today. We are talking about creative finance and also bunny rabbits. Did you hear me say BiggerPockets Bunny Podcast?

Scott:
Oh, I love that. That was pretty good.

Mindy:
I’m trying to be more like you, Scott. We dive deep into creative finance. And Pace. Morby is a masterful storyteller. You will learn a lot from this episode. Before we bring in Pace, we have a new segment on the show today called Money Moments where we share a money hack, tip or trick to help you on your financial journey.
Today’s Money Moment is, did you know you can buy prescriptions at Costco or Sam’s Club even if you don’t have a membership? Take advantage of the low prices from these membership warehouse stores without paying the $60-a year membership.
Although I am huge a fan Costco and have been a member for something like 30 years. So I think it’s valuable to be a member of the Costco membership. But if that’s not something that is on your radar, you can still take advantage of their super low prescription prices.
All right, before we bring in Pace, let’s take a quick break. And we’re back. Pace Morby is a regular contributor to BiggerPockets and the author of the latest BiggerPockets publishing title called Wealth Without Cash. Pace specializes in creative financing, a topic we really haven’t covered before. But we are going to dive deep into it today. Pace, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast.

Pace:
I’m a huge fan. Congrats on doing over 400 episodes. That’s amazing.

Mindy:
Well, thank you, Pace And I’m sure you’ve listened to every single one of them, so thank you again. Pace, let’s jump in on you and your story. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got started in real estate investing.

Pace:
Yes. Grew up in a household of 12 children, blue collared working father. My dad was a CPA during the day, made $60,000 a year supporting 12 kids. So that doesn’t go well. So obviously, he was moonlighting as a contractor as well, making money under the table, doing drywall for little ladies and all that kind of stuff just to make ends meet.
And I ultimately ended up doing the same thing when I got into my 20s. I put myself through college being a contractor at nighttime. And then, I got into construction very heavily, probably around 24, 25 and built a big company. I started utilizing social media as a way to showcase my work. And I ended up landing a pretty sizable client, Opendoor. They were my biggest client. I was their first contractor in Phoenix, Arizona, and my construction company blew up. And I ended up having about 250 employees, a lot of learning lessons through that, Opendoor.
Then, started having me open up in Dallas and Vegas and other things and expanding. And then, I got hired by Offerpad. And then, I got hired by Zillow. And I started doing hundreds of renovations and rental turns for all these big companies, American Homes 4 Rent, Colony Homes, all these big companies.
And then, I had some other smaller companies as well that would hire me local to Phoenix, Arizona. And I ended up getting hired by a lady named Bethany Willis. And after years and years and years of doing renovations for other people and watching everybody else make money on their flips, on their rentals and all this kind of stuff, I had convinced myself that I was at some way in some fashion involved in real estate.
And it wasn’t until Bethany Willis hired me to do some of her fix and flips. And she told me that I was nothing but a slave to her business and that the only actual real estate investor was the people that I was working for, that I then was able to make the deviation into investing in real estate on my own. And if it wasn’t for Bethany, not only saying that, but physically showing me how to do it because I’m very much a monkey see monkey do do type of person I would’ve never been able to get into real estate.

Mindy:
Does Bethany have a warm place in your heart? That doesn’t sound like a really nice conversation to hear. You are a slave to me and everything. I’m the only real estate investor here. That doesn’t sound like something nice.

Pace:
I think a good mentor knows what to say to the right person. And I think I look at her as a mother figure to me now. And basically, here’s what happened. I had done two renovations for her. I was on time, on budget on both of them, which is very rare for any contractor to meet.
And so she hires me for a third one. I go to do the estimate at the house. And she comes and knocks on my glass and she like… Well, I’m sitting in my truck. She comes and knocks on my driver’s side door. She goes, “Get out of your truck.” And I’m like “We need to talk.” And I’m like, “What? What’s going on?” She made me sit on the back of my tailgate and she grabbed me on my right shoulder and she dug her hand in my right shoulder. And it was somehow, someway it was very strong and stern, but it was also in a loving way.
And she looked me in the eyes and she said, “Why are you not in real estate?” And she asked me a question nobody else had asked me and challenged me. And I defended myself and I told her all the 15 reasons and excuses why I hadn’t made the leap. And she says, “You’re a blue collar guy. You have to look at blueprints to build a house. Do you mind if I show you the blueprints to get into real estate?” And I said, “Oh my gosh, that’s exactly what I needed.” And she navigated me through and walked me through by showing me, not just telling me, but showing me. And if it wasn’t for Bethany Willis, I’d still be doing construction work for other people.

Scott:
How many homes that you worked on or how many projects have you had you completed in total, by the time you had this conversation?

Pace:
What a great question. Nobody’s ever asked me that before. I had done over 7,000 renovations for other companies before I even believed in my own possibilities and my own future. So that tells you the mind space I was in. And the mindset that I had is that I was just a worker bee. I was exchanging time for money and we were averaging 35 to 50 turns a month for Opendoor, Offerpad, and Zillow. And we had collectively done about 7,000 total. I’ve done new builds, additions, everything that you can imagine I did as a contractor. And I had done 7,000 until somebody… And to answer your question, do I have a warm place in my heart? Well, Mindy, if she didn’t ask the question that way and she didn’t acknowledge that I was defending myself and she didn’t acknowledge as a mother would to a child of like, this is an excuse you’re telling yourself, and it’s a lie.
And if she wasn’t stern with me, she wouldn’t have broken through that big thick skull of mine into this little peanut brain that I had. And what she said to me, Mindy, is she says, “You are as replaceable to a real estate transaction as a mobile notary.”
A simple Google search can replace you. You don’t own your business. I own your business. If you are a real estate agent, you are not in real estate. If you are a mobile notary, you are not in real estate. If you are a title or escrow company, you are not in real estate. You are a service provider to someone who is.
And it was a smack in the face. I did not hearing it just like a lot of people might not hear… There’s agents that are going to hear me say that and they’re going to say, “Yes, I am. I have a real estate license.” Okay. Well, they didn’t teach you how to invest in real estate, in real estate school, did they? And nor does your broker. So you are a service provider to somebody else. And if Bethany Willis had not told me that and said that to me in such a strong way, I would’ve not listened to her and broken down and actually humbled myself enough to open up my mind and say, “Show me.”

Scott:
Look, I’m doing some very simple math here. You did 7,000 jobs prior to this conversation. And I’m going to assume at the profit to you on those jobs was a thousand bucks per job. That’s probably a very low estimate. That’s $7 million in profit that we’ve generated in the years preceding this conversation. So getting into real estate for someone with a thriving successful business that’s generating tons of cash, and I’m probably off potentially by an order of magnitude on that estimate, what’s it like for someone like you to then make the transition into real estate investing? How do you get started and go after it following this conversation from this excellent starting position, even though you were working for other folks during that period?

Pace:
Right. I love that question. So like most small business owners, the reason they can’t scale is because they just reinvest all their money back into the business, right? Hiring more people, buying new equipment, mismanaging money, hemorrhaging on this job site because somebody’s eyeballs weren’t on it. Something went too long. Oh my gosh, we lost 40 grand on this. We underestimated. All of those things going on all over the place, but making really good money. The first year I took home a million dollars was 2013, so 10 years ago.
And I was still a contractor at that time. And that was because of Opendoor. I was getting paid incredibly well. But the problem is as a contractor, expansion is the only thing you’re ever taught. Just build bigger, build bigger, build bigger. So now, you’ve got company trucks and insurance and workman’s comp eating away at your profitability. And you think you’re running a really successful business. But really all you’re doing is creating a heavier ball and chain really.
And nobody teaches contractors hire COO or hire a great CFO, hire these types of people. You’re doing everything yourself. And so, your profits also diminish because your projects are less and less and less efficient.
So how did that get started in real estate? And the other thing too is a contractor, people that are out there that are contractors, you end up being the bank on a lot of your customer’s jobs. Customers, you’re always doing job… I did a lot of 203(k) renovations. For people that don’t know what a 203(k) renovation is, it’s when a homeowner goes and gets a 203(k) loan from a lender. And the lender will reimburse the construction costs to the contractor. But guess what the contractor has to do before he gets reimbursed? He’s to spend his own money on the project for the homeowner out of his pocket. And then, he gets reimbursed 30 to 60 days later.
I had to 30 or 40 of those jobs going on all the time. We had millions of dollars in outlay, millions of dollars in outlay. So when I said, “All right, let’s get into real estate,” even sometimes taking a paycheck as a contractor, you talk to any contractor, they’ll go, “Oh yeah, we have millions of dollars circulating, but I can’t take a paycheck.” That was me.
I was very much that guy. And I didn’t learn the basics and fundamentals of how to run an actual successful business until I was probably about 31. And it was because I met more successful people than myself along the journey. But my foray into it is I told Bethany. I said, “Well, how do I do this?” She goes, “What’s keeping you from it, dude? You’ve figured out the hardest part of all of this. You’re the contractor. Everybody else is having a hard time with contractor.”
And I said, “Well, where does the money come from?” She’s like, “Hard money.” I’m like, “That’s the mafia, right?” The mafia comes and hits you in the knees with a baseball bat. She’s like, “Dude, are you dumb?” No. And so she taught me what hard money was and private money was. And then she said, “You know what? Forget all that. What you need is you need to just take action today. I’m not going to teach you anything else. I’m not going to teach you another thing.”
So what she did is she made me pull out my phone and order postcards. And even as I was pulling out my phone, I look up at her and I go, “Well, Bethany, how do I know where I send these and what color are the postcards and what should they say?”
And she’s like, “Oh my gosh. Just take out your phone and make the call.” And so, I called her postcard company. I don’t send postcards now. It’s too expensive in my markets that I advertise. But at the time, it worked.
That day, I sent out 10,000 postcards. It cost me $5,000. And I started generating inbound leads. What I found on that phone call, I was sitting on the back of my truck, I made the phone call to the postcard company. I go, “Hey, I’m standing here with Bethany Willis. She told me to call you.” And I go, “I’m just starting. Where should I send?” They go, “Oh, perfect. We have a starter package. We know where to send them, what to say, how frequently to send them, what size the card should be, what color they are.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, there’s these resources out there this entire time. And I’ve been having what I now called creative avoidance. I’ve created ways to avoid doing this.”
And Bethany says, “Spend the money.” I spent five grand on 10,000 postcards. And about three weeks later, I got two leads that called in. And I missed both phone calls. You know why? It’s because I had my phone in my back pocket and I was installing somebody’s toilet at their fix and flip. That’s where I was in my life, that I was so involved in my business that one of my guys forgot to install one of the toilets. My customer calls me and goes, “We need this done.” And instead of calling my guy or having an organized way of calling and figuring that out, I have to go in my truck and do that. I missed two phone calls in a 30-minute timeframe. They were both leads that came in.
And that night, I looked at him. I go, “Oh, I probably don’t need to call these people back until tomorrow.” I’ll call them back tomorrow, which is also how I was operating my construction business. So I get home. My wife goes, “Hey, have you gotten any leads?” I go, “Yeah, actually. I got two leads today.” She goes, what’d they say? I go, “I don’t know. I didn’t answer. I was busy installing a toilet.”
And my wife says, “Are you kidding me, dude?” Call him. I go, “I’ll call them tomorrow.” She says, “Okay. But when we go out to dinner and you call ahead and you say, what’s the wait? And they say, ‘Anything more than 15 minutes,’ you immediately choose a different restaurant. You think these homeowners that called you are going to wait till tomorrow. Where’s the logic?” And my wife doesn’t talk this way.
My wife is very sweet. She’s like, “Sweetheart, I love you, but please make the call.” So I pulled out the phone. And right there, as I was pulling out the phone to call these leads back, I got my third call. And that third call ended up being my first deal. And it was a lady named Janie Munson, a retiring school teacher. She called me up. And I had no idea what to do. I had no idea what to say.
I had taken imperfect action. And so, what I did is, Janie’s like, “Hi, my name’s Janie. I just got your postcard. I’m just wondering if you could give me an offer on my house.” And I’m like, “Can you wait a minute?” And I put her on pause. And I then called Bethany Willis. And I said, “I have no idea what to say to this lady on the other line.”
And she’s like, “You spent money to generate leads to go see people’s houses and give them offers. It’s that simple. Make the appointment.” And so, I got back on the other line. I go, “So I guess I should be going up and seeing your house and let’s give you an offer.” That’s how unsure of myself I was.
And the next morning on my way up to that appointment, I called Bethany Willis again. And I said, “Okay, I got three problems. I don’t know what to offer. I don’t know anything about the paperwork. And I don’t know where the money’s going to come from for me to buy this house in the first place and what I’m going to do with it.” And she says, “You shouldn’t worry about two of those problems, paperwork, and what you’re going to do with the property. All you should do is ask me what you should be buying it for.”
And I said, “Okay, what should I buy it for?” She says, “Okay, let me look at it.” And she says, “I’m going to comp it real fast.” I go, “Excuse me.” I didn’t know what comping meant on my first deal. And so, she comped it and she said, “Don’t pay a dollar over $150,000.” And I then drove up to the house, met with Janie. And this story is actually in the introduction of the book that we wrote together, BiggerPockets of Myself. And I go up to the house and I walk into Janie’s property and I get to the kitchen, and I look down on the countertop. And there’s a stack of real estate agent business cards and a stack of postcards, all my competitors that have either been to the house or about to come to the house. And I asked one of the most important questions.
I asked this probably five times every day since. What’s kept you from selling the house so far? And she says, “Well, I have an offer of $165,000 already.” And because I’m a retiring school teacher and this is my last asset, and this will be where my retirement comes from, I need more than 165,000 bucks.
And when you’re brand new, that might as well be the Grand Canyon. Like 150,000 is my maximum allowable offer. And she says she’s already got an offer at 165.
And hopefully, people that are listening to this, well, she tells me she’s got an offer at 165. And so I go, “Well, my offer’s going to be way lower than that, so I probably shouldn’t even tell you. I don’t want to embarrass you.” And Janie Munson, the seller says, “That’s a sales tactic, right? You’re just trying to anchor me. I taught school kids all day long. I’m used to being manipulated. Please, do not manipulate me.”
It was like that type of moment. I go, “I promise you, Janie. I don’t even know what I’m doing. I don’t even know what sell strategies would work. So I think it’s probably good for me to just leave and I’m not going to…” She’s like, “You’re not even going to give me an offer?” Like, “I don’t want to embarrass you. I think you should go with the 165.”
But this is where growing up in a household of 12 kids and having a heart of servitude, my parents, my mom raised us in a way that by the time it was six o’clock in the morning, we were required to have our shoes on. And my mom’s thought process there was, “You never know what neighbor’s going to need your help to feed the horses. You never know who’s going to need help moving. You’re never going to know if your dad needs you to ump on a truck and go to a job site. Always have your shoes on. Be ready to go serve somebody. ”
And that’s how when I started dating my wife, she’s like, “Why are you always dressed and ready to go at six o’clock, even on a Saturday morning?” I’m like, “I guess because maybe one of the neighbors will call and I could feed their horses. I don’t know.” And she’s like, “Wow, your mom trained you, dude. Your mom trained you.”
So as I’m leaving the house, Janie’s house, and so in the book, I tell a story about one of the most important lessons I ever learned. And this is how I got into real estate, and this is how I think about every single house. I didn’t know how to do the paperwork. I didn’t know how to do the comps. I, still at this point, didn’t even know where the money was going to come from.
Somebody else had already offered more money than me, but because I asked her this question, I ended up getting the deal. And I said, “What else can I do to help you? I’ve got crews. I’ve got resources. I’ve got people that can come help you load trucks once you’re ready to move.” And she’s, “I don’t need help with that. I have a bigger problem. I haven’t been able to solve in a year and a half.”
So she says, “Are you sure you want to help me?” I go, “Yeah, I want to help you.” So she takes me to the back of her house. So from the front door where I was about to leave, we walk right back to the back of the house and she starts opening up this sliding glass door, and she hadn’t renovated the house in 40 years.
It’s like single pane windows, bad roof, hot water heater, all the things are falling apart. And her sliding glass door, the rollers on the sliding glass door were busted. So it is like…. as she opened up the sliding glass door. And she opened it up. And she revealed three Flemish bunnies to me.
A Flemish bunny is the size of a four-year-old child. They’re massive, humongous. They look like a four-year-old kid put a bunny suit on. She has three of them. And she’s like, “We don’t know what to do with these. I’m moving. They basically take 20% of my income to take care of. My pension’s small, and they eat real human beings. They eat a lot of food. I need to re-home them.” And to speed up this story a little bit, I go, “I can help you.”
I call my mom. My mom’s pretty awesome. I call my mom. I’m like 28 at this point, 30, 2, 29. And I call my mom. I go, “Janie Munson, here’s her story. She’s got bunny. She needs help re-homing them.” My mom shows up 40 minutes later with a truck that I have no idea where this truck came from, probably one of her neighbors. And she’s like, “All right. I’ll take these down to my two acre little thing. They can hang out with my goats and my chickens.” And so, she takes the bunnies from Janie. And Janie’s like in tears. She’s like, “I cannot believe you don’t want to buy my house.” I’m like, “It’s not that I don’t want to buy your house. It’s that you have an offer at 165. I can’t pay that much money. So go sell with the other people.” And she was just so confused as I left, and we parted ways.
Two weeks later, I get a call from her. And she says, “Hey, Pace, I’m a school teacher. And as I gave my kids homework, I also give myself homework. And today on my calendar, my homework is due from months ago. I said, ‘I have to make a decision on who to sell the house to.’ And the only name I wrote on that calendar is you. And I want to sell my house to.”
And I’m like, “I can’t. I can’t offer you 165, Janie.” And she’s like, “Pace, out of the 15 people that came to my house before you and the 15 people that came after you, you were the only person out of 31 people that I met at my house that ever asked me if you could do anything else besides by my house. You asked me where I was moving. You asked me when am I retiring? How’s my pension going to take care of me? Do I have people on the other side that are going to care for me? You asked me questions about how was it being a school teacher? You know how many people heard me say I was retiring as a school teacher, you were the only one that told me a story about your favorite teacher, Mrs. Rose.”
She’s like, “I want to do business with people like you. So whatever your number is, I’d like for you to bring the paperwork up today. I’d like to sell my house to today.” I ended up buying the house for $150,000. Bethany Willis met me at the property. She helped me through the paperwork. And as we left the house, I’m like in disbelief still not knowing where the money’s going to come from or what I’m going to do with the property. Bethany fills out the paperwork.
We walk outside the house. We’re in the driveway at Janie Munson’s house. And I said, “I’m not quite sure what just happened.” And she says, “You found the bunnies.” I’m like, ‘What do you mean?” She says, “In every seller’s situation that you’ll ever meet, you’ll do hundreds and hundreds of deals, Pace. I promise you that, you will never get a more powerful lesson than this first deal you did, which was you found somebody’s literal bunnies.”
But in all these other sellers stories, they have figurative bunnies. They have divorces. They have kids that have passed away. They have inheritance. They have people that are fighting. They have foreclosure. They have all these bunnies that most people are not digging into and even helping them out with. They’re just focusing on the house. And if you can remember that real estate is not about the house, but it’s about the seller and helping them out, you will dominate in this business.
And she says, “Write that down. Remember that it’s never about the house. It’s always about the bunnies.” And I’ve carried that with me for forever. so here’s how I got the deal. This is what’s funny. She goes, “All right. So here’s how we’re going to do this. You’re going to sell the house to me for $175,000 on an assignment.” I didn’t know an assignment was. I didn’t know what wholesale meant. And so, Bethany bought the deal for me at 175. I made $25,000 for three hours worth of work. And this is where my mindset was even at the time.
I go, “Oh my gosh, I made $25,000.” But you know what I was actually really excited about? The prospect of doing the renovation for Bethany was more exciting to me than the money that I made. And Bethany says, “Excuse me, you think you’re going to do the renovation on this house? You are fired here for ever from all of my renovations. You have learned how to find properties, find people’s bunnies, and negotiate a price lower than the offers they were receiving by being a good human being. And you’re still going to want to install my toilets?”
She says, “You got a broken mindset, and you got to work on that mindset.” And for several months after that, Bethany really helped me work on that mindset of find the next deal, find the next deal, find the next deal, find the next deal. In the next three weeks, I locked up three contracts, all wholesale deals. And had made an accumulated amount of about $50,000 assigning all of those to Bethany Willis. So she was smart. She created basically a bird dog for me. I went out and paid for the leads. I went on the appointments.
She helped me out and navigated me through the process. And then, she got three flips out of it. Here’s where I jumped into creative finance. We opened escrow at all three of these contracts at a title company where an escrow officer named Eileen Brown was there. And she became my next mentor.
And Eileen Brown says to me. She says, “Man, you just came out of nowhere. I didn’t know who you were two weeks ago. Who are you?” I tell her about the bunnies. I tell her about the houses I bought. I tell her all the stuff. And she goes, “Okay, well, how many leads do you have?” I go, “Well, I have 50 leads. I got three contracts.” Okay, well Pace, what are you doing with the other 47 leads? I go, “Oh, they want too much money, or they don’t have equity. And the numbers just don’t work.”
And she’s like, “Okay, you just told me about this story, the bunnies, right, how you found this lady’s bunnies?” I was like, “Yeah.” She goes, “All those other 47 leads that want too much money or have no equity, they have bunnies too. They’re just a different color and a different size, and I can show you what those are.” And what she showed me was subject to in seller finance. She said, “Go to the people that have no equity and tell them, ‘Hey, you have very little equity. What if I just take over the payments on your house through subject two?’” And I was like, “Wait. What subject, what?”

Scott:
Pace, I would love to ask a quick question about this because someone might be thinking, “Hey, didn’t she just get this house for 150K when it was really worth 175 K to Bethany? And isn’t that bad for Bethany?” And I’d love to ask you how you might handle that question. And in particular, how those bunnies, how much would’ve cost Bethany to continue to house and feed those bunnies, for example?

Pace:
Okay. Great. So you’re saying instead of me finding the deal, have Bethany go out and find the deal and skip the $25,000 assignment fee she paid me? Yeah.

Scott:
Hey, we just talked to this whole thing. You solved a problem, but it caused Bethany 25,000. She could have sold it for 25,000 more. Do you think that the solution you found-

Pace:
Oh you’re talking about Janie. Janie’s the seller. So Janie could have just re-homed the bunny herself, right?

Scott:
Oh, apologies. Yes. Janie, yes, the seller, yes.

Pace:
Yeah. So okay, by that same argument, wouldn’t all the sellers that are in foreclosure across the country right now. In Maricopa County right now, we have 2,800 live foreclosures. Couldn’t they just solve their foreclosure themselves instead of giving somebody a discount on their home.

Scott:
Yeah. Again, I agree with the premise. I would love to hear your take on it.

Pace:
The reality is we’ve all been in a stressful situation, whether it’s a personal thing, a family matter, a relationship that we’re in. And the only thing you can see is that problem, right? You can’t see outside of that.
And so having a third-party come in as a consultant, same thing with an attorney or anybody that you end up spending money with or spending time with, somebody else’s perspective opens up all the options for you. And sometimes, that advice is invaluable. So no, Janie for her, she’s like, nobody cared, right? And the other thing is that people came in. They didn’t even ask to solve her problems. They just criticized her single pane windows and her hot water heater and her air conditioning unit hasn’t been updated in 15 years. And they would spend all their time criticizing the lady’s house in order to get a reduced price.
The thing is, if somebody besides me offered 165 and said, “Hey, I’ll help you with the bunnies, or hey, I’ll help you with this, and they didn’t criticize her and make her feel bad about her situation,” they would’ve bought the house before me. It didn’t require me. It required somebody to care about the seller. And I can tell you, out of the thousands of deals we have now done, I’ve never once bought a home. I do primarily off market. I’ve never bought a home from a seller that did not have a similar situation, a divorce, or we just bought a 43 unit multi-family in San Angelo, Texas on seller finance. And the seller gave me 43 multi-family units on seller finance, no money down, 4% interest. And he gave me 50 years to pay him. He’s going to be the bank for 50 years.
And somebody would say, “Why would he do that?” Well, because I’m better at finding bunnies than you, Mr. Real Estate Agent or Mr. Real Estate Broker or other real estate investors. I’m genius at that one thing, right?” As an empath, I had 12 siblings in my family. I understand what people need and I can understand body language better than probably most people.
And so, when I talk to Mario, the seller of that unit, I’m sitting there talking to him, Mario says, “I want to sell this asset for $3 million, but everybody is offering me 2.7 million.” I go, “Well, Mario, I’ll give you $3 million as long as you can give me seller finance, and I don’t have to come up with all $3 million now, and we don’t do a credit check and we don’t do credential check, and you don’t look at my tax history and blah, blah, blah.” I’m literally saying that, but that’s what I’m inferring.
And he says, “Okay, but I want 30-year payments and I want 8% interest in order to do that.” And then, I noticed his son was in the car with him as we’re negotiating, and here we are in Texas. His son is in the car. And I said, “Hey, what’s going on with the son?” And I dig and I dig and I dig, and I find out that his 12-year-old son is the reason why he’s selling this property. No other reason.
Everybody else is looking at the mathematical reasons. He wants to retire. He’s done with the tenants. He wants the tax savings. He wants the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these other reasons. He wants to avoid real estate agents. He wants to avoid capital gains. All these reasons why seller finance is a better situation for that seller. I found the bunnies, and this is what he says to me. We get deeper into the conversation about his son. He goes, “You wouldn’t believe what my son asked me for his birthday this year. In fact, he was too embarrassed to ask me. He asked his mother. He said… His mom goes to him and says, ‘Hey, little Mario Junior, what do you want for your 12-year-old birthday this year?’ And Mario Junior says, ‘I just want my dad to love me as much as he loves his tenants.’”
And this is what people are missing in real estate, is they’re not understanding the real motivation behind the seller. And so, what I did with Mario is I said, “Yeah, it makes sense.” I said, “You know what would be a grand gesture is imagine your son being 62 years old and still collecting a payment from me 50 years later, and that payment every single month is a token of your love for your son, far beyond how long you’re going to live. Your son will continue to collect a payment on this as the bank of this property.” And I said, “Why don’t we set it up as a 50-year-term? And he says, “Done. Let’s do it.”
When you can stop looking at the numbers and worrying about the spreadsheets and actually get to know the seller, Mario sends me a text message probably every Christmas, every Thanksgiving, every whatever. The last one he sent me was…. Mario. There it is, Easter, April, April 9th, Happy Easter.”
This is a seller who gave me a 50-year term, 4% interest, no balloon with no money down because I found his bunnies. His bunnies was I want to show my son that I love him and I want to be more of a passive investor so I can spend more time with my son as he’s 12 because he’ll never be 12 again. No amount of money, no amount of negotiation was going to figure that out. It was me asking the questions to get to the root of the actual problem.

Mindy:
Okay. Pace, you have thrown out a couple of terms that I want to clarify for our listeners. Can you define seller finance and subject two?

Pace:
Yeah. So think about seller finance very simply. Let’s say I have an iPhone, right? Somebody wants to buy this iPhone from me for. And I go, “Yeah, I’ll sell it to you for 1000 bucks.” And they go, “I don’t have $1000.” I go, “Okay, great.” Why don’t you make me a $50 payment for the next several months until it’s paid off?” That’s seller finance. I’m the seller, and I’m financing my buyer. Seller finance.
When the phone is paid off, free and clear, I, the seller, get to dictate those terms. So I can say, “Give me a hundred bucks down, $52 a month,” whatever I decide. The seller can dictate those terms because there’s no debt, right? And there’s no predetermined debt attached to this phone because it’s paid off free and clear.
Now, subject two, different version of that is let’s say that I went to T-Mobile or AT&T or Verizon, and I got a payment plan on this phone when I bought it. And that same person comes to me and says, “Pace, I want to buy that phone from you.” And I go, “No problem.” But I have payments attached to this phone that I pay every month to Verizon.
Well, my buyer could just simply say, “How about you just let me take over those payments?” I go, “Okay, no problem. Here you go.” That’s subject too. Taking over somebody else’s payments on whatever it is. Could be a phone. Could be a car. Could be a house. Could be a business. We just bought a CPA firm on seller finance and subject two. We took over their SBA loan. It is literally just taking over the existing debt that’s on whatever that thing is. It’s very simple.

Mindy:
Okay. I, as the seller of the phone, am concerned that you’re not going to make my payments for me. And now my credit is going to get trash. Do you take over my loan or do you just make payments for me?

Pace:
Okay. If I took over your loan, that would be called an assumption. I’ve never done an assumption, nor will I ever do an assumption. It’s a waste of everybody’s time. A lot of people teach, “Oh, we can do assumptions.” It’s a waste of everybody’s time.
So when somebody says to me, “Well, I’m worried about you not making the payments.” Okay, well, first and foremost, you are probably not the demographic of seller that I go after. I’m going after sellers that are expired listings, foreclosures, et cetera, sellers that are in pain that actually the last thing on their mind is that payment.
They’re just like, “Get this off my plate.” So remember, I’m not just going to my next door neighbor and saying, “Can I take over your payments?” I’m going to sellers that have pain that is not just noticeable. It is already blasted on public record that these people are in a painful situation.
Perfect. Doesn’t mean the question’s not valid. It just means you need to understand the mindset of the people we’re talking to. So when a seller doesn’t ask that, by the way, because we will get sellers that don’t even ask like, “What happens if the payment doesn’t get made,” we always tell them, “Hey, there’s five questions you really should ask when you sell to us on subject two.”
One of them is, what happens if the payment isn’t made? Well, a couple of things. I don’t take the money out of my bank account and then go over to your bank and make the payment. That’s not how it’s physically mechanically done. The way it’s mechanically done is I hire a third-party servicing company, much like Mr. Cooper or Weststar Loan Servicing. What they do is I pay them $17 a month.
They pull the money out of my bank account. And they go over and they pay your payment to your mortgage directly. They pay the HOA payment. They make sure taxes and insurance are paid, any other payments that need to be made, and then they send you an email every month, five days before the payment is supposed to be made saying, “Hey, this has been paid on time.”
In the event that I default, in the event that I get abducted by aliens and I’m no longer on this planet, the way that we structure that arrangement is that you take over the property before I ever go into foreclosure through a deed in lieu. And you take the property back. You take any deposit I gave you, any payments I made along the way, any renovations I made along the way. Anything that you’ve benefited from, you get to keep all of it and you end up taking the property back without having to go through a foreclosure process.
So it all depends on how you structure the arrangement. Everything goes through title or a closing attorney, depending on the state you’re in. And the seller’s protected in multiple different ways.

Scott:
I think that’s awesome, and that’s a very convincing sales pitch right there. And I think something that if I was in pain, I would be very, very interested in. You said something earlier that an as assumption of a mortgage is a waste of everybody’s time. Could you elaborate on that? And specifically, I’d like to probe into first-time home buyers or house hackers, and whether you still think it’s a waste of time for first time home buyers or house hackers to think about consumable mortgages if they’re going to move into the property.

Pace:
Great question. Everybody that you guys listen to out there in internet land, make sure you are paying attention to the person you’re listening to and what journey they’ve been through, because I know strategies that then make other strategies obsolete for me.
I also stay away from the burr. A lot of people focus entirely on the burr. But because I understand creative finance, burr becomes obsolete for me. Same thing with arbitrage. Arbitrage, one of the greatest ways to get started in real estate, I would never do arbitrage because I’ve learned new things that make arbitrage obsolete for me. So let’s say that you go, “Man, I really identify with arbitrage, or I identify with house hacking or identify with burr,” well, for heaven’s sakes, do anything to get started. Do anything. Do a bird deal. Do arbitrage. Do house hacking. Do all of those things. Make sure that you’re taking action on a daily basis, whatever you identify with.
For me, an assumption is worthless to me because I can go close a sub-two deal. I could go find a sub-two deal right now, no exaggeration in less than five minutes, no exaggeration. That sounds crazy, but in five minutes, I could find a sub-two or seller finance deal ready to go where it doesn’t require even a credit check.
Nobody asks for my tax returns. Nobody goes through a long, lengthy process and says, “Show me all your P&Ls from last year’s comp…. all your companies.” Show me how long and seasoned your money has been sitting in your bank account. None of those things are required in a sub-two or seller finance transaction at all. Zero, zilch, nothing.
So for me, when I go through an assumption, an assumption is basically the same process of going through and obtaining a new loan. They still go through and sniff everything about me and go through all my stuff. And it takes weeks if not months. And then, they have to go, “Well, the last three tax returns aren’t enough.” We really want to get the fourth tax return.
Really? We’ve been working on this for three weeks and you’re still throwing new things at me? I’m done. I’ll just go do a sub-two and seller finance transaction. So for me, as an individual that understands the power of creative finance, I will never do an assumption, and I will really never focus on other strategies just because of what I do know.

Scott:
Okay. That’s awesome. I think that’s a great framework here. Let’s zoom in on somebody who has maybe one or two deals or is just getting started in this and doesn’t have the total confidence that you do, and being able to solve problems, find those things, make that compelling. I’m so sure of this, that you’ll get everything back that I’ve paid in the unlikely event that I do default. That’s got hundreds or thousands of deals under their belt. What is the approach that you would recommend to somebody who’s just getting started and trying to do their first creative finance deal? You’re starting all over in-

Pace:
Great question. Man, I can talk about this stuff all day long. I love this so much. These are great. You guys are asking me questions to other people who just don’t ask. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.
One thing I have to lay out, whether it’s creative finance, traditional finance or anything else, you are at risk of losing money in real estate. But for some reason, people think because it’s creative finance and I have the seller still involved, that’s the only real estate transaction where somebody’s at risk. I go down to the bank right now. And I go to a bird deal. What if I can’t operate that? What happens? Guess what? Those are recourse loans. They will destroy my credit. I will have a foreclosure on my name. Guess what? In sub-two and seller finance, they don’t.
If I actually default on a sub-two or seller finance transaction, guess what doesn’t touch my credit? Either of those loans. There’s a massive benefit to going into creative finance because even if you do mess up, which we’ve never lost a home or ever defaulted ever, but in the event that I did, it still wouldn’t hit my credit. Seller finance deal would go right back to the seller. Sub-two deal would go right back to the seller.
I would never have to go through foreclosure. There’s tremendous benefits when you compare those things in a worse case scenario type of world, right? Okay. Now that being said, if I’m brand new, I’ve done one deal, maybe two deals, how would I go about going and doing this? Well, I can tell you the most important thing on the planet is not technique. It’s not strategy. It’s relationships with people that are one step ahead of you, most important thing that’s ever happened to me.
So I would find people on the BiggerPockets forum. I’m in there all the time answering questions about creative finance. There’s other people in there doing creative finance across the country all over the place. Now, if I go, “I’m afraid of meeting other people, I just want to go and find my own deals.” Very simple. Go to landwatch.com. There’s 12,000 current listings right now listed for subject two or seller finance, 12,000, nationwide, listed right now.
Go to your local MLS. If you’re a real estate agent, guess what? Type in subject two or seller what may carry. In your MLS, you’ll find hundreds of deals on your MLS right now with those in the descriptions. Those are low hanging fruit. Surprise, surprise real estate agents that have been in the business for 20 years don’t know that.
Then I tell them that and they go to the MLS and they go, “Oh, dang. Pace is right. There’s seller finance and subject two deals on the MLS right now. This is blowing my mind.” All 50 states, by the way, not just my state, all 50 states, another low-hanging fruit. If you want to call sellers yourself and you want to go and do what my business does, focus on expired listings.
Expired listings are the easiest pain point because that is a seller that listed the property with an agent for six months. And the property was told multiple times that it’s not worth what they have it listed for so long that the seller decides to fire the real estate agent after six months. And now the seller is sitting there unrepresented and it becomes an expired or canceled listing. Same thing. We call that seller and we say, “Hey, my name is Pace. I’m an investor. I saw your house was on the market, got pulled off. I’m just curious, what were you looking for in the market that you weren’t able to get through your real estate agent?”
I go, “How about my price?” Well, okay, well, we buy houses a little bit different. I’m not an agent, but I’m an investor. We offer whatever the seller’s price is, as long as the seller can offer us terms in the sense of like the iPhone thing. Can I make payments to you for this iPhone or can I take over your existing payments for this iPhone? Same thing with the house. Can I take over your existing payments and give you a couple thousand bucks?
Now, we’re on a podcast. But if you guys look at my board on the YouTube video, you’ll see all over the country, we have 1800 doors between multi-family and single family. And not a single one of them was purchased with anything but creative finance. This is not just happening. It is happening in abundance in all 50 states.

Scott:
What percentage of the time do you get rejected when you come up with these types of strategies?

Pace:
A lot, but just like any cash deal, right? Here’s the thing, is if you go into an appointment, let’s say, we go into 50 appointments, right, 50 houses, three bed, two bath houses in Maricopa County where I do most of my investing, I go to 50 appointments. I’m buying one cash deal. One.
The average real estate investor is going to go on 50 appointments, buy one deal, maybe two if they’re really, really good. If you add creative finance on there, that number goes from one to two up to six. So creative finance is twice as much or three times as much effective because I’m not squabbling with the seller about their price. I’m squabbling over the terms of that price. How can we make this work? I’ll give you the thousand dollars for that iPhone as long as you give me a payment that I can afford.
In fact, one of the ways that I explain seller finance to sellers is about an F-150 story I tell all the time. And it’s how people finally understand what seller finance is. And the first time I ever did a zero down, 0% seller finance deal was when I told this story. I had a wholesaler that calls me up and they go, “Pace. I’m having a hard time, man. All these sellers are crazy. They’re out of their fricking mind. They’re just wanting way too much money.” I’m like, “Those are my favorite leads because you guys are not trying to find the bunnies.” So his name’s Tim. Tim calls me up. He goes, “Will you go on this appointment with me? I want to just see what this looks like.” I go, “Sure.” Go to the appointment. I meet Dale and Susan, the owners of the property.
We’re in the carport. The tenants leave so I can go into the house. We find ourselves into the kitchen. We’re talking back and forth. And I ask Susan. So Tim tells me that you guys are wanting $110,000 for this house, and where’d you come up with that number? We already know where she came up with the number, Zillow.
Zillow told her, it’s worth a hundred grand. She says, “Well, the market’s trending upwards, so I want 110.” Welcome to real estate. This is what happens. This is not the exception. This is the expectation of this business. So wholesalers, what do they got to… If that property ARV is a hundred grand at the time, or this is several years ago, a wholesaler has to buy that probably 40 grand to wholesale it to somebody else for 50, and then they buy it for 50 with closing costs. They’re at 55. Then, they put 20 into it. They’re into it 75. They sell it for a hundred. They maybe make 10 grand after closing costs, commissions, concessions, all that kind of stuff.
40 grand is the number. So I said, “Well, Susan, what’s kept you again?” Go back to Janie’s question. The first question I asked her, “What’s kept you from selling the house so far?” She said, “I’m getting low balled, man, all these wholesaler, all these investors.” She didn’t know what wholesaler was. But she’s like, “All these investors are low balling me.” I said, “Well, I imagine you’re probably getting offers probably somewhere between 40 and $50,000. Is that right?” And she’s like, “Yeah. How did you know?”
I said, “Because if I was going to offer you a cash offer, I would’ve offered you 40,000 or $50,000 too.” And if you guys understand neurolinguistic programming, I teed her up to then go, “What do you mean if you are going to offer me cash? You’re not going to offer me cash?”
So she goes, “What do you mean? You’re not going to offer cash on the house?” I go, “No, because if I was going to offer cash, you were going to turn it down anyway.” So let’s throw cash out the window. Cash doesn’t work for you. You want $110,000, which is 10 grand more than what this house could be if it was completely fixed up. I said, “I would potentially come up to $110,000 if you would be willing to give me terms on that $110,000. Now, sellers, let alone real estate agents, don’t even know what terms means.
And that’s an intentional thing that I say to sellers. I say, “If you give me terms, I could come up to your number.” And it purposely makes them pause. And when they pause, I then go, “Do you want me to tell you what terms is?” And they go, “Yeah, please. That’d be great.” So Susan says, “What’s the terms?” And I said, “Well, let me tell you a story about an F-150. This will help you understand what terms are.”
I said, “As a contractor, for a long time, I had this F-150 that hit 320,000 miles. And this is a truck that my guys, four guys, would sit in. It’s a four door F-150. It would go to all these job sites, and it would make me money. These guys going around and painting houses for me. And one day, it hit 320,000 miles. And just like this property that you have, it’s starting to have more issues than the headaches are worth.
And so I decide I’m going to go to the Zillow of cars, which is Kelly Blue Book. So I go to Kelly Blue book, and I see my truck is worth $5,000. Well, Susan, I’m as belligerent as you are. So what I did is I went to Craigslist, and I put my F-150 on Craigslist for $10,000. I’m thinking, “Man, somebody will give this to me.” Three months goes by, nobody buys the truck. Nobody even sends me a message, criticizes me, makes fun of me and says, ‘You’re offering how much money? $10,000?’ Nothing. Zero, zilch. So my wife comes to me one day and she says, ‘Hey, any chance you could sell this truck and get it out of the driveway? Every day I come home, I got to navigate around it to get into the driveway.’ And I was like, ‘What do you want me to do?’.
If I put it on Craigslist for $5,000, follow me, Susan, if I put this truck on Craigslist for $5,000, do you think I’m getting $5,000?” And she goes, “No, you’ll probably get $3,000.” I go, “Just like you.” Even though Zillow says your house could be worth 100, people are offering $40,000. Welcome to the world we live in. It’s the same thing with cars. It’s the same thing with businesses. You got to figure out a different strategy.
So my wife goes, ‘Well, you’re the creative finance guy. You’re the terms guy. Why don’t you just let somebody make payments on your F-150?’ And I’m like, ‘Oh my gosh. You’re so freaking smart.’ So I go on Craigslist, and I change one thing, Susan. F-150 will take payments, no bank needed. Did I sell that truck for $10,000?” She’s like, “Probably.” I go, “No. I sold it for $12,500, a $1000s down, 4% interest at $350 monthly payments every month.”
She’s like, “What? Are you joking me? I go, “No. His name’s Juan. Juan is a mechanic and a painter. And he said, ‘If I can fix the truck, I can put it in my painting fleet and I can make six or $7,000 a month off that truck.’” And I said, “Susan, one thing I learned very quickly in this business is that the value of something is never the purchase price. The value of something is what I can do with it.”
And she’s like, “Oh my gosh. I get it. I totally get it.” And I said, “So Juan, in your conventional brain, overpaid for my truck. But in my mind as a business owner, no he didn’t. He figured out how to get into that thing without a credit check, immediately put it into his fleet of houses going out and painting and made way more money than the $350 monthly payment. So that’s what I’m trying to do with your house. I’m trying to give you a number that makes sense to you so you can win, but I can also make money on a monthly basis. So will you give me terms?” And now, she understands what terms it means. She says, “Yes.”

Scott:
So what you’re doing here is you’re a acquiring assets. And in many cases, you’re acquiring them what your balance sheet is getting blown up. So this apartment complex you just talked about. It was worth 2.7 million on the open market, but you bought it for 3 million. So you’re underwater in this particular situation. But on the flip side of that, in this deal where you just sold your truck, you’ve just put a $12,000 asset on your balance sheet, the loan, and selling what would’ve sold for a three to $5,000 purchase price. How do you measure your success in this model? What is the mindset of Pace Morby measuring whether you’re progressing your goals?

Pace:
Cashflow and net worth. And here’s the thing about debt. Okay. I don’t pay off my debt. My tenants pay off my debt. 33% of a tenant’s income goes to paying off my debt. So my goal is to accumulate as many tenants and as much debt as I can so that those tenants can pay off that debt for me and create a delta, otherwise known as equity. Obviously, there’s cash flow. Every property I own cash flows.
And this is where the equity people come in and they go, “Well, you’re buying properties at 91 cents on the dollar, which a lot of times I do.” I’m very rarely over ARB. I’m just using some of these examples to show you that the value of the property is not the purchase price. It is what I can cash flow with because, again, equity comes and equity goes. But the cash will always flow is my mantra.
If I set it up with the proper cash flow and the proper management, the tenants pay down the debt. The property will naturally appreciate over time. This is the other thing too. I haven’t paid federal income tax in seven years. How? Because I used depreciation and cost seg to wipe out all my active income because I’m a full-time real estate investor.
So there’s so many benefits to buying these deals But the answer is always cash flow. And people go, “Well, what do you say about the equity?” I go, “Do you know that 99% of real estate purchases on the planet called homeowners do not buy properties with equity?” In fact, they’re buying properties at full retail value. And then, after closing costs and other things, they are over leveraged on these properties, 99% of real estate transactions. But does anybody care about that?
No. Because of the way they use that property. Same thing for me. When I’m buying a property, if I buy it at… My average property, we buy about 91 cents of ARB. If the property’s cash flowing and now my tenants are paying down that debt, the purchase price is actually not even like the third or fourth thing on my list. I look at the interest rate. Actually, number one thing I look at is what is my down payment, if any? What is my interest rate? And what is the length of term the seller’s willing to give me? Those are way more important to me than the purchase price.

Scott:
Pace, I have one last question before we go. I thought that when I read this book and I thought it was fantastic, I thought I read a book on creative finance. Did I really read a book on creative finance or did I read a book on how to create deals essentially?

Pace:
I would describe it as the appetizer to all the great things creative finance has to offer and opening up your eyes. One thing I went to BiggerPockets about and I said, “Guys, please, let me create a Video Companion Guide to this book,” because I want the book to be digestible and easy for people to understand because creative finance can sometimes be overcomplicated. And unless you tell stories about an iPhone or an F-150, for example, people don’t understand creative finance.
And so, what I did with BiggerPockets is I said, “Can you guys please let me make two to three hours of video content per chapter that everybody that buys the book gets access to?” So one thing that was really cool is BiggerPocket says, “Absolutely, that’d be sweet. Nobody’s ever done that.”
But the day I press record on the first video, this is what happens. I get a call from a seller of mine. He’s in town from Boston on a deal that I’m currently negotiating with him. He says, “Hey, I’m in Phoenix at a solar convention. He is a solar sales guy and I know your headquarters are here in Phoenix. Can I stop by and we can finalize the negotiation?”
I go, “Sure.” But I’m recording today in my studio. Are you okay just coming over and maybe doing the appointment in front of an audience? ” He’s like, “Yeah, sure.” So he comes over. On the first video, you’ll see in this Video Companion Guide, I do an hour and a half seller appointment live. And I buy this guy’s Duplex in Boston subject to with no money down.
And I do it live in the Video Companion Guide. So for me, I look at the book as an appetizer and a gateway to some really, really cool, amazing raw content that I otherwise couldn’t put on YouTube because it gives people’s names and addresses and stories and all sorts of cool things. So the book is just an appetizer for really, really cool things that the Video Companion Guide has to offer.

Mindy:
All right, Pace. This was so much fun. You really are a great storyteller. And I appreciated hearing these stories, and I’ve learned a lot from you today. Where can people find more about you?

Pace:
Guys, come in the BiggerPockets forums. I’m hanging out there a lot more. And we’re going into creative finance forums, and I’m doing Q&A a lot of times and some… Come hang out with me in there. Another thing, if you guys ever have a direct question, I answer all my Instagram DMs myself. And if you ever want just creative finance content, that’s it, unfiltered, unedited, my YouTube channel, 1600 videos at this point, which is just crazy. So thank you so much. But you guys are the best. And the fact that you guys are at 400-plus episodes, you chose to spend any time with me, just super humbling. I’m big fans of both of you guys. Thank you so much.

Mindy:
Holy cow. Scott, I’m sorry. Holy bunny, Scott. That was Pace Morby, and that was a lot of fun. I learned quite a bit, including now I’m going to start looking for bunnies.

Scott:
Yeah. I mean Pace is obviously an absolute pro at both real estate investing and teaching the subject matter that he has mastered in his personal business.
So it was a real privilege not just to learn from him and how he thinks, but also to hear him speak and tell these stories that are so powerful and resonate so well. You can really see how someone who’s ambitious and motivated could seriously pull off a lot of the strategies that he’s talked about over the course of their career. And I think it’s an illuminating perspective to not care as much about the purchase price and more about the terms. And there’s really interesting ways to arbitrage your balance sheet, for example, if you get thinking about what he’s really saying and the depth of the game you can play when you’re willing to use to be the bank or have sellers become the bank.

Mindy:
Absolutely. There’s this block about, oh, I’m not going to pay $100,000.” Well, why not? Because it’s not worth it. Well, getting over that, doing math in a different way, looking at the deal in a different way could net you a property that you may have overlooked otherwise.
I think that there’s a lot of benefit to creative financing, especially in this rising interest rate environment that we find ourselves in. It was a lot easier to qualify for a 3% mortgage than it is for the current, what, seven, 8% mortgages that you see right now.
If you could take over somebody’s payments, if you could get seller financing, if you could be creative in a number of different ways, that could be the difference between adding to your portfolio or sitting back and watching somebody else add to theirs. That wraps up this bonus episode of the BiggerPockets Bunny Podcast. He is Scott Trench, and I am Mindy Jensen saying toodeloo bunny Poo.

Scott:
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Mindy:
BiggerPockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kailyn Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.